Ep54 Hamas Leader's Son Became Israel's Greatest Spy - Mosab Hassan Yousef

In this explosive episode of Life Lessons with Dr. Bob, we delve into the secret life of Mosab Hassan Youssef, the son of a Hamas co-founder who shocked the world by working as a spy for Israeli intelligence. Mosab, also known as the "Green Prince," exposes the brutal realities of Hamas, including internal torture and the manipulation of young recruits. He candidly discusses the deep-seated hatred towards Jews taught within the organization and his daring missions to prevent terrorist attacks and save countless lives.

This episode uncovers the complex moral dilemmas Mosab faced, the secrets he unearthed about his own family growing up in the shadow of the Muslim Brotherhood, and his shocking revelations about the extent of Israeli intelligence operations.  Tune in to Part 1 of this 2 Part interview to uncover the inner workings of both Hamas and the Israeli Shin Bet, and an authentic look into the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict.  In the aftermath of Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh being killed in the Iranian capital of Tehran by Israeli forces, these perspectives are more important than ever.  #hamas #israelhamaswar #hamasvsisrael #gaza #hezbollah #iran #palestinian #radicalislam #muslimbrotherhood #greenprince #drbob #shinbet #israeli #tehran #ismailhaniyeh 

Transcript

So yeah, this is just another dimension of my daily life. You know, in the morning I work for the U .S. government. In the night, I would infiltrate, cut the fence,
infiltrate the border and go to a meeting with the Israeli intelligence. And sometimes late at night, I would meet with Hamas high -profile wanted terrorists. And sometimes you just go two or three nights without just you'll have to stop the suicide,
the next suicide bomber before they reach their target. Mainstream media gives you the impression that there is nothing good about America. In direct contrast to that,
my podcasts will prove by examples that America has always been and still is the land of opportunity for everyone. Hello,
and welcome to another episode in the series Life Lessons with Dr. Bob. In this episode, is likely to be the most interesting in the entire series.
Everyone knows about Hamas, the barbaric terrorist group that slaughtered more than a thousand innocent Israelis, including women, children, and even babies.
On October 7th of 2023. Well, my guest today is the eldest son of one of the two founders and leaders of Hamas.
As you'll learn, Mosab Hassan Youssef is an intelligent and exceptionally brave individual. He was born a Muslim in the West Bank and became an incredibly valuable spy for Israel.
He was born in Ramallah in a Palestinian -controlled territory in Israel that is called the West Bank. His father, Sheikh Hassan Yusuf, was the co -founder of the terrorist organization Hamas.
And Mosab is often referred to as the son of Hamas. Mosab is the most interesting, the most unusual, and the most daring guest that I've ever interviewed.
For 20 years from 1987 until 2007, he worked for Hamas. And for his last 10 years at Hamas,
from 1997 to 2007, he was at the same time working undercover for the Israeli security organization Shinbet.
Shinbet assigned him the codename the green prince, green because it's one of the colors and the Hamas flag, and prince because he was the son of the king of Hamas.
With the possible exception of Ellie Cohen, an Israeli spy who worked for Mossad, and who became a highly -ranking government official in Syria in the 60s,
Mossab, Hassan Yusuf, is the most important spy that Israel has ever had. With the information that Mossab provided during his 10 years of being undercover,
Israel was able to stop numerous terrorist attacks, bombings, that saved hundreds of Israeli lives. Today, you'll hear his story of redemption from helping Hamas to carry out terrorist acts to helping Israel to stop them.
Welcome to the show, Mosab. Thank you for having me. There is something that we need to I don't think that it was the most important asset of the Israeli intelligence.
I mean, it's a bit exaggeration. Maybe within the Hamas circles and maybe there could be someone that is more important.
I think the most important asset, the one that you don't know about. And just based on my humble knowledge of the Israeli intelligence,
I think there could be some prime ministers, presidents, lawmakers, billionaires, celebrities all over the world that work for the Israeli intelligence without having to go through details.
There is no limit to how far the Israeli intelligence can go in their recruitment. So to claim that I was the most important, I think this is a bit too much and not realistic.
Well, I appreciate your modesty, but you're certainly the most important one that I know of. How's that? Okay. All right, let's start at the beginning. You were born in a Muslim family where you were the oldest of eight children.
Your father father is Sheik Hassan. First, what does the term sheik mean? It's a religious status, but also it could be a tribal leader.
So did he take that name by himself or he was given that name because he was a tribal leader? No, actually he earned that name because he was, he was religious. He started his religious education at young age and he led the mosque in the village before he moved to the city.
So he earned the status as a religious leader. I see. And as I recall of that time, the Palestinian authority,
the PA, was in charge of the West Bank. Hamas didn't exist. So why didn't your father work with the PA instead of starting Hamas?
Well, actually, Hamas was in the West Bank before the PA came in 1995. Oh, I didn't know that. But the PLO was there.
The PLO was there before Hamas. And the Fathach as a major PLO movement was also in the West Bank.
Because why my father did not get involved with that because my father's approach is Islamic religious ideology versus secular movements.
So they are rival parties. I see. So more like the Muslim Brotherhood then. Would that be fair to say? Well, Hamas is the Muslim Brotherhood. Oh, it is the Muslim Brotherhood.
Hamas is the Muslim Brotherhood. There is no difference. People make take when they differentiate between both organizations. But the Muslim Brotherhood also inspired Fatah, inspired Yasser Arafat.
Because Yasser Arafat, the leader of Fattah and the PLO, the chairman of the Parisinian Authority, was inspired by the Muslim Brotherhood when he,
at the early beginning of his adventure. So the Muslim Brotherhood influence actually is greater than what most people know.
But eventually I think Yasser Arafat choose a different path than the religious path. Didn't mean that he was not religious or wanted an Islamic entity of a kind.
Now, how old were you when you learned that your father was one of the two men who started Hamas and were in charge of Hamas? How old were you? I mean,
from the early beginning of my journey, my early memories as a child. I remember the mosque.
I remember the top Hamas leaders coming into our house. That included Ahmad Yassin, when the Gazans were able to travel freely to the West Bank. So that period,
my father and other Hamas leaders, by the way, he's not one of two, he's one of many. There are original I think seven founders. Oh, I didn't know. The data I read said co -founder.
They keep it confusing. They mean to send misinformation. And by the way, Hamas would never admit any founder,
member of Hamas' involvement until the day they die. After they die, they reveal their actual rule. So... So the hierarchy is kept secret of important because there'd be targets for assassination.
Exactly. So I learned about my father's involvement in the original founding of Hamas from a secret document in prison while I was in prison.
I was given the duty as a scribe. So I was writing mass secret documents. And in prison, in Israeli prison?
In Israeli prison. So this is how I learned that my father was on the original founders. And when I asked him the question, he said one day the truth will be revealed.
And he did not even confirm that. But it's known that he's one of the original founders. Of course, there is the West Bank and there is Gaza and there is the diaspora and there is the Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt,
the Muslim Brotherhood of Jordan, all the leaderships from different regions participated in founding Hamas.
So it's not only a one or two. I think it could be like dozens of leaders throughout the region. And you grew up, your father was at home with you, right? Most of the time,
I assume. And what did he tell you? Did he get you involved in Hamas? What did he tell you? About the goals of Hamas, for example? The early beginning of it, there was no Hamas.
There was the Muslim Brotherhood. And the Muslim Brotherhood was preparing to lunch Hamas. They were just waiting for the right moment. The early memories of the Muslim Brotherhood was summer camps where they took many youngsters.
I was part of that. I was the youngest. And the goal was to indoctrinate, to train. And it was more of a military preparation,
even though arms were not allowed at that time. And today, just looking back, I realize how the Muslim Brotherhood was preparing to give birth to Hamas.
And my father was part of it. He was not at home for long periods of time. Apparently, he was busy planning the establishment of Hamas.
And at that time, at home or in the camp, what did they tell you about the Jews in Israel? Look, there is Jewish hatred that is evident in the Quran at mosque,
and especially for the Muslim Brotherhood, they have a combination of religious and political reasons to incite and propagate against the Jewish people.
On one hand, Allah, that's the God of Islam, has an egoistic problem with the Jewish people. He's clashing with them,
and apparently throughout the centuries, the Jewish people had been disobedient. They violated the Sabbath, They did not obey the commands of God.
They worshipped the cow. They did not listen to Moses, et cetera. So they had been punished.
And this is the description of Islam. It's a hateful relationship between Allah and the Jewish people, even though the Jewish people supposedly the chosen ones, the people of God,
but God... They disowned them, at least the Muslim God. Exactly. So that's the right, correct, that they've been disowned. So it wasn't over land initially,
it was over the fact that the Jewish people rejected Allah? That's correct. Yeah, I see. And when you were growing up, did your father want you to study anything to be a professional,
a doctor, an architect, or even a store owner? Or as the eldest son of the family, did he expect you to take over his role in Hamas?
Not really. He wanted me to focus on my education. We did. Yeah, of course. And it was not only regular education.
It was a secular one, which was a normal school, and it was also a Sharia school. So I had to do two schools at the same time. And I graduated from the secular school,
and I graduated from the Sharia school. But then I continued my studies on my own. And He never forced me to study something.
I see. But you did get involved in some violent activities, and you were arrested when you were just 10 years old by the Israeli police.
So you must have done something. I mean, I was a troublemaker as a youngster. It was during the first Palestinian Intifada, and I was hanging Palestinian flags all over the place. I remember I would go into my mother's kitchen.
I would take the towels, kitchen towels. I would take like green, white, black, red, and just take a scissors and thread it myself,
then hang it to just piss off the IDF. I see. And I just would create like a big scene in the town. It was very exciting for me to just clash with the IDF and cause lots of trouble.
So I really participated in the cause at a very, very young age. And this is why when I see the indoctrinated fanatics today and I just see a projection on my past,
how I was just, I got a couple of ideas that they were not original, validated by a majority of society,
and I almost got killed or hurt in the process and i heard so many people throwing stones at the civilian vehicles this is this was not an act of resistance it's terrifying there were some women and children in those vehicles i mean like i'm not saying like in the sense of guilt but like this is the rule of like even a child is very very dangerous if a car is driving let's say at 50 miles per hour and they had
children and then you hit the front windshield, I cannot, I don't want to be in that car. It doesn't matter if it was a child throwing the stone or adult.
It doesn't matter. So I did this a lot and eventually some of those Israelis trapped me and they knew me actually because I was there just causing trouble on daily basis.
And they took me into the back of the car to a military base. And I have to say that this experience at the age of 10 left me wondering because first of all,
they did not lay hand on me. They did not. They did not. They did not. They did not use force. They did not, and when I got to the military base, the idea for like,
you know, what the heck are you doing? And they were just communicating in Hebrew, like this little thing, you know, it's because of lots of trouble. He's the one who's throwing stones on regular basis.
We had to bring him. And the idea of it were like, you know, you must be out of your mind, like from just their expression. They totally rejected rejected that and the thoughts like, we cannot, he's 10 years old.
So now the soldiers are looking at me and how can they teach me a lesson? So they said, why did you do this in a broken Arabic?
And I was just terrified. Are they going to shoot me? Are they going to beat me up? Because I'm coming from a culture where everybody beat me up. The parents, the principal, the sheikh at the mosque,
everyone. So I'm expecting that those guys are going to beat me up also because I did something wrong, right? But what they said, take off your shoes. I took off my shoes and they said,
walk with us. And they walked me to the gate of the military base. They opened the gate and said, do you know how to get home? And that was maybe like about two kilometers from the military base.
That's your punishment. Yes, and they were still like, okay, walk, walk home. And don't ever throw stones again. So that was my punishment. Reasonable. Very reasonable. I mean, if it was an Arab situation,
if I was throwing stones at an Arab car, they would have beat the shit out of me. And this is, by the way, just for me. And when I went home,
the entire neighborhood knew that I had been arrested. My mother was crying. She could not believe when she saw me. They thought they were going to shoot me right now or beat me up. And I was just fine.
So it just gives you an idea of like the difference between an establishment that follow human rights protocols that cannot violate even though,
let's say, the citizens were just so disturbed by throwing stones. And today, you know, where I stand, I can't totally see how bad it was.
For a child, it was, okay, this is a habit that everybody is doing. It's part of our culture, you know, not feeling and not seeing how the other side.
But you're probably still too young to appreciate that they treated you like a person. Absolutely. Only today I can't look back, knowing the IDF and knowing the protocol,
basically. Now, before you became an agent for Shimbab, how many times are you sent to jail in Israel? You told us about when you were 10, were there more times that you spent in jail?
Yes, I was arrested again briefly when I was 15 years old For just one night, I was captured doing Hamas,
midnight activity, writing graffiti on the walls. We had masks, and they were just other students, like from the Islamic student participating.
So when the idea found us around midnight, wearing masks, right, in graffiti, they just did not realize that we were just kids so they shoved us into the back of the jeep and they took us to the military base we spent the night there and in the morning when the commander came he found that we're just kids so they released us again so this was the second time i would be captured for a few hours and released because
i was a minor even though i was doing things that an adult would be sentenced to six months to one year in prison. Just another example from my personal experience that Israel would never target minors and unless they did something like stabbing.
If they really cause injury to someone, then the minor rule does not apply. So later on I was arrested at the age of 18,
but that was not a minor crime. I had purchased guns, and during a time where Hamas was launching many terrorist attacks.
So the shinbet did not tolerate that, and this is when I was arrested. They didn't know what was my intention, what I wanted to do with the guns. So they arrested me before,
like I did something. And did they know when they arrested you or they interrogated you that your father was one of the leaders of us? Of course. They knew. Of course. Well, this was the reason why they were very concerned.
Because, first of all, I was under their watch. And when I start behaving strangely, hanging out with some Hamas, dangerous people, going to different towns and smuggling weapons,
this became a red flag that I don't think the Israeli intelligence would have tolerated. And did they interrogate you? Did they try to turn you into an agent?
Yes, actually, they tried and I agreed with the sick intention to work for Hamas against Israel. Ah, I see. This is why I agreed from the beginning.
There was no way for the Israeli intelligence to actually turn me against my father, like at least against my father. I don't want to say against the Palestinian people or against Hamas because my relation with my father was very strong and I really loved my father.
So there was no force on earth would come between me and him. But I thought that would be an opportunity to fool the Israeli intelligence and work for Hamas, bring information.
So basically this was, and I thought also this is how I get out of the trouble. They may release me. Because they think you're working for them. Yep. But You took the job not really wanting to work for them.
But you did. You started doing some things for Israel. You started giving them information, I assume. And what was the first mission or job that they gave you to do?
Once you accept it, I'm going to work for you. What do they have you do? Well, first of all, it was not as simple as a thought. So they said, you have to go to prison. Because if we release you,
people will get suspicious and you will be killed. So they said, you go to prison. And that was not in my calculations, in my mega plan.
Yeah, you thought they were going to let you go. Yes. So they ended up sending me to prison where the actual prison was not Israeli prison. It was a Hamas prison.
It was a Hamas imprisonment. Because in that facility, Hamas was torturing. correct?
Israel has let's say criminal section. Yes. And has security section. I see in the same okay it's the same in the same physical prison. Some prisons might have like two different sections but inside the security prison.
Yes. There are thousands of Hamas members and Fatah and the public front the rest of the Palestinian political. And they put you into that prison. So I was in that prison under Hamas management,
because each faction, we're talking about massive prisons, thousands of, like each section would have hundreds of prisoners,
giant tents. So Israel could not, under the waves of so much terrorism, to have a cell for each prisoner when you have to deal with hundreds or even thousands at the peak like now what we are dealing with the October 7 you don't know who's actually involved so you'll you'll have to take huge numbers of prisoners to actually know the involvement which one is extremely dangerous which one is less dangerous then you may
like separate separate, the less dangerous... I see, so they weren't in separate cells. They were in like a tent or... Like I say, the very dangerous prisoners there would be in their own cells,
high security prisons. The less dangerous would be in more like open area, like the one I was in. And there would be thousands of them.
So in this type of environment, Hamas would control their own prisoners. And they become a mini government. They have emir, they have leadership,
they have ministers, and they have, most importantly, security wing, which was brutal, looking for who gave the information to Israel. So I come into this environment and I tell Hamas,
hey guys, I've got a plan. I want to fool the Israeli intelligence, they were like, what are you talking about? I was like, this is what they approached me. And I told them, yes,
I have a plan. He said, okay, no problem. They were surprised. So I said, why didn't you write it? So I wrote, it was literally half a page because there was no mission. There was nothing.
And when I sent it to the other side, and they had their way of communicating with the other sections of the security wing.
The response came back negative. Is that it with a big question mark? And I was like, yes, this is it. But now they weren't convinced.
Even though you were the son of one of the leaders, yes. لذلك على one hand they did not believe me but on the other hand they did not want to torture me because they could not even though they tortured so many people for much less so here I am telling them you know I literally have a relationship with the Israeli intelligence but not for the purpose of treason I would never you know betray my father but they
wanted more information like my story did not suit them they did not suit their narrative And this is where I think went really bad between me and Hamas.
So for about 16 months, and by the way, I revealed the information from the early beginning, the first week of my arrival,
I had to live 16 months with monsters killing and torturing people brutally, being a suspect, a son of a top Hamas leader but in the meantime they did not believe me and it was a very very strange relationship are they going to torture me and I mean people were screaming out loud all the time so for me it was a nightmare for 16 months this is what most people don't understand you know what it was like to be a
suspect honorable Hamas member right at the same time right they had so many privileges and of course the rest of prisoners they had no clue what was going on i just told them the truth that's it and the truth was not sufficient it was not enough they wanted a different narrative that would satisfy their ego so anyway uh i did not like these people uh in fact i hated them so much for what they did لما فعلت لك so
many prisoners وكنت أسأل كيف الكثير من الناس were innocent people لأن if they're not believing in minority even though I'm just an open book I told them the truth كيف الكثير من الناس could be innocent and they've been tortured because they did not have the support I had and this is where things psychologically start like a changing between me and Hamas now it didn't stop here When I was released from prison,
and of course, I was not tortured. You can say I was more of like mentally... Mental. Mentally tortured. Yeah, yeah. When I was released from prison,
Hamas followed up outside prison. They literally came to my house, and that was part of the Hamas security wing. And they were like, we just want to follow up. Did the Israeli intelligence approach you,
did they want to follow up? I was like, no, they didn't. They said, okay, you keep us just posted. And I was like, what the heck? Am I going to just live the rest of my life like their bitch?
They're going to just hold this against me for the rest of my life? What's this? And my father was still in prison, high security prison.
So he wasn't in that prison to protect me and he was not outside prison to protect me and this is when the Israeli intelligence came, approached me during that time. In prison or outside?
Outside prison. That was actually the thing that they said in prison you just behave yourself just be normal, we have nothing for you to do in prison. And now you will be surprised also what they told me outside prison.
So When I went to the meeting, I just wanted to tell the Israeli intelligence, please leave me alone, because I did not want things to get more complicated.
Hamas is after me. They were after me in prison, and now they're after me outside prison. Things are getting dangerous, and I cannot convince these people that I was joking, but how can I get out now out of the,
Because I had promised the Israeli intelligence to work. So I felt like cut up and I was only 19 years old in that situation. So in the meeting,
the Israeli intelligence officer, they were very warm and they were very nice. It's something that I did not actually expect. And they asked me, you know, how was the experience in prison? I told them,
you know, people were dying. You know, why didn't you لماذا لم تأتي لتساعدك الناس الذين كانوا يعملون لك؟ وقالوا " لا أحد هذه الناس يعملون لنا " وقالوا " مالذي يعني؟ " لا أحد هذه الناس يعملون لنا " وقالوا " أخذني " قبل أن أعمل مع الشمبيت 18 سنة هناك only one person from our division the entire district of Ramallah that was captured and this is his name even he mentioned his name his name is Khadr اسمه خدر تنوص و هذا
الشخص يخبرني أن أعرف أين هو right now هو في كاليفونيا قال عندما كانت تساعدة الإسرائية الإسرائية يسمى "دياسر أرفات" و أعطيه بعض الأفضل التي لا أستطيع أن أتحدث معك لتساعده إلى إسرائيا و خدر كانت تساعدة بسرائيا إلى إسرائيا و put him on a plane and now he's in California.
Do you think we let our people suffer? We don't come to help the people who help us. It's not what we do, but he said all these people in prison, they're just innocent people and Hamas is frustrated.
They don't know we give the information. They're killing their own people. Why are we supposed to stop them? Now this is where it hit me because I already had a feeling. And from a personal experience,
I know this people were accountable to nobody. They were just torturing people out of frustration. They were not following any criteria or logic or any of that.
So anyway, long story short, I was like, what if the Israeli intelligence telling me the truth about my father's organization? We are in deep trouble. And this is,
by the way, why I agreed to the second meeting because I became now more curious to know more, even though my initial agreement to work for the Israeli intelligence to actually work against them.
It was fake. Not for them. It was not sincere. And things actually would continue like this as out of curiosity that I wanted to know for myself, firsthand experience,
for at least two or three years of a very suspicious relationship especially when I told the Israeli intelligence that was my original intention to fool you guys to work for Hamas and I told them I told them the entire story that happened in prison and that was a red flag for the Israeli intelligence they they did not like this because a couple of people pretend to work for Israel and they end up hurting their
handlers. And right now, they knew it was almost impossible to turn me against my people. They knew that. They knew my relationship with my father was excellent.
So why would I do that? So it was a very suspicious relationship the first couple of years. And during that time, they just said,
finish your school. And I was like complaining, you know, I cannot afford it. My father is in prison. I need to work. My mother cannot afford it. He said, here is money. Enough for school.
Go finish your education. No kidding. So they were actually making, they actually made an investment in you. They cared about you as a person. From the early beginning,
I said that we don't work with losers. They said, in order for you to be successful, you must be successful in your own society first. So they paid for my college.
Four years, they paid every penny, and they wouldn't give me anything extra. The thing is that they were very afraid that if I have extra cash on me,
where did they give the money? It becomes suspicious. Even college, how did you cover for that? Didn't your mother say, where do you get in the money to pay for college? How did you cover? So I had to take a job. I had to take a job,
and that was my cover. I see. I see. I got enrolled in an open university so I could manage a job. And without having a job,
they wouldn't pay. Of course, yeah. But this is, you know, for many people who say, it's like, oh, you know, you sell out, you betrayed your people for money, they don't understand that this was just a logistical thing.
And later on, when I became, let's say when I got really in the espionage game, when I was prepared mentally, physically, I had my education, I graduated from school,
and the second Intifada started, where I became involved, like I found myself literally, in the inner circles of not only Hamas,
but also the Palestinian Authority and the PLO. I was in Yasser Arafat meetings. I was in Yasser Arafat meeting when he actually gave my father the green light to launch suicide bomb and attacks.
And that was immediately after Yasser Arafat had won the Nobel Prize. Nobel Priests Prize, right? And here he is giving authority for suicide bombers.
Yes, the Israeli intelligence could not believe that. So first of all, I will... You reported that. I reported that meeting. Not only that. The meeting of the leadership of the Second Palestinian father was taking place in a secret,
different secret locations every weekend. And I was in that meeting as well, every meeting. So all the decisions were taken by not only Hamas,
the entire Palestinian factions were documented. And I would send it to Damascus. I would send it to Jordan. I would send it to other, to Gaza.
So you were the note -taker, basically? So basically, all the documents came out of that meeting were under my control. Whoa. And the communications coming. So suddenly I was in the heart of not only Hamas leadership,
but all the leadership of the second Palestinian Intifada. So I was able very fast to build bridges with Fatah,
for example, Marwan Bargutti, his assistants, his bodyguards. We got involved very fast in purchasing guns,
weaponry trading. They were so desperate to find explosives because they knew Hamas had access to that. So with no time,
I أقلت دائماً في حماس والدائماً بشكل لعصة أرافات وعصة جهازة 17 ومع ذلك تتحرك كثيراً في ترارات ترارات أكثر في الأكسة وكانت أولاً لتجده أول مقبول which was led by Ahmed Ghandur and Muhannad Abu Halawa.
So for the surprise of the Israeli intelligence, that we recruited this guy for Hamas, but this guy is right now operating on so many fronts that I was able to put my hands on suicide bombers before they reached their target.
And how did you communicate the information to the Israelis? Well, unfortunately, I suppose not to be talking about how we communicated, because this is the secrets that I am not obligated,
you know, by the Israeli law. For me, when I revealed my rule in the first book, son of Hamas, I avoid talking about logistics. Okay, okay, I understand.
Even though I was not, even though I was not obligated. But later on, you know the years after the years went by and I met with the Shimbet again and they were just very very grateful they just said you know thank you for not revealing you know how how would things and I told them how would I like why would I give a gift to to terrorists so I wanted to just bring my role and I did not want to reveal how
things were done and I continue this is my basically basically my moral obligation. But the least I can say it was sophisticated. And there was no way for any terrorist to trace or follow me to any of the meetings.
Not only a terrorist, in fact, if other intelligence services were on my tail, there was no way for them to follow me to any of the meetings or know who I was meeting or why we were meeting throughout the 10 -year career with the Israeli intelligence.
I have to commend the shin bait for how much budget, how much effort they put to just keep me protected. And all, of course, the things that they did within my society to help me clear my image after what happened in prison.
So they did the impossible. We orchestrated scenarios that are much bigger than Hollywood with the involvement of armies,
with the intelligence. And nobody knew that we were just basically fooling terrorists and creating my public image to allow me actually penetrate and infiltrate the terrorist organizations.
For example, I read that they actually arrested you so you wouldn't be, so that Hamas wouldn't suspect that you were involved. They actually arrested you and brought you to prison. And as I understand it,
the organizations in the Shindat or the police who arrested You had no idea that you were a double agent. It was very carefully kept. How many people knew that you were the green prince?
How many people knew? Less than a handful of people. Really? Yes. Even when the big reports went on the Aser Arafat,
the Israeli prime minister, even the prime minister had no clue, who brought the information. The head of the Shembet knew about my existence,
for sure, because I received lots of, you know, gratitude and thanks for the things that I was doing. In fact, at some point, the head of the Shembet was against my involvement too much.
His command was, you need to let this guy slow down, Because if he does not slow down, he's going to get caught, he's going to get killed. And the amount of protection,
actually, that the shimbed had on me, I would say, I didn't know at that time, but now I know that it was around the clock. I thought they were exaggerating, but it was around the clock. Because the amount of information that I had on the operation and logistics and how things were done now became the government's secret.
the government's secret. I became the secret. And if I get caught and reveal that, if they don't rescue me in time, it could be devastating for the operation. So they had to actually put me under protection at all time.
With that said, the army should know about my existence, shouldn't know about my existence. So when they arrested you, they thought thought you were a criminal. Yes, when they tell the army,
they tell the army, we are about to arrest a terrorist, and that's it. Many times I got stopped by the IDF,
by accident, or by the police. They harassed me, they humiliated me, whatever it is, they interrogated me. I remember one time I had a device on me,
and the devices, of course, they're not like the FBI you see in the movie. It's not like wire stuff. The Israeli intelligence has like a lot more sophistication when it comes to that. So even if you get stopped by the police or by the army,
they cannot find it. But they could listen to the interrogation. What are you doing here? Why why you're going into Israel, why did you jump the fence?
Because as you see, they could have arranged for the army to open the gate or to open the checkpoint. But then how come I'm crossing the checkpoint freely and there are other Palestinians and there is the IDF.
They could maybe see me on TV next to my father. How come like the son of a top Hamas leader just traveling freely? what,
if they catch me, they would kill me. And they say, no, we are watching that there is no, like, vehicle in the area. So I would cut the fence. I would infiltrate. And I would go to,
say, one or two miles on foot into the Israeli territory. And then there would be, like, the wrong police vehicle.
And I would get stopped. Now I'm infiltrating. So I have device on me. The other end, the Shimbab can listen to everything. But also they cannot interfere right away. So they have to let things take their course where,
you know, now the border police would call the Shimbabed and say, we've got this guy infiltrating. This is his ID number, what we're supposed to do with him. So they were just like,
okay, send him back. Okay, and this is how complicated the situation was. It was never easy. And they had to protect me from even other shin -bait agents,
other Arabs working for the shin -bate, and never met any Arab working for the shin -bate. And Hamas or your family never suspected, right?
They never suspected you? Look, the cover was perfect. Oh, for 10 years. Was beyond perfect. The only thing would have been dangerous that I opened my mouth to anybody.
It's the only thing that I could only hurt myself. But at the end of من الوصول الإسرائي لن يقوم بعمل مخطئة في بعض الوصول كانت جدا جدا جدا أتذكر أحد الوقت كان مروان برغوتي هذا هو الآن الجميع يتحدث عنه كما يتحدث عنه as the next Palestinian president يتحدث عن five life terms in the Israeli prison أساعدته فيه ويساعدته الوصول هو "الفرنسي" moment This guy was wanted for assassination because he was responsible for a minimum
of suicide bombing attacks a minimum of seven mass shootings and suicide bombing attacks This is the assistant of Barghouti "احما دالفرنسي" So now and this guy also is in Israeli prison now.
So anyway, I was able to locate him. Before he was in prison, you mean? Before he was in prison. He was very hard to capture at that time, to arrest him. Because the IDF was not allowed to go into Yasser Arafat compound,
and this guy was hiding in Yasser Arafat compound. So did Marwan Barguti. They had immunity. And So I got him out of the compound with the purpose of just like literally shooting him with a missile.
And after I did that, we had him in an open area. I drove away. And I was like,
that's it. You know, a missile is going to, like A bunch of missiles are going to come just from the sky. And the choppers were just at the corners of the city. You cannot hear them far enough.
But the guy is a dead man walking. So nothing happened. I was like, what's going on?
They said the head of the shimbed did not agree to this. I was like, why? They said, because you were the last person saw him. And apparently someone saw you with him.
Oh. And this is why the operation was canceled. Yeah. If they were killed, then you weren't. Yes. I see. I was to protect you. Literally. But this is like how sometimes even they were like very dangerous targets.
Like we're talking about a very, very dangerous man. That really like even I did not want to get involved in killing anyone. That was, you can say, my principle. Just like, let's arrest them.
But I know in this case and a few other cases, the guys were hiding right beneath Yasser Arrafat office. And Israel could not go arrest them.
And they were just shooting on regular basis every other day. The least of them had a dozen dead people blood on their hands. So,
what to do? If I don't get them out of their safety zone into an area where we could do something. So for me, like you can say, I had the moral conflict about it,
but also I had the responsibility. Like, you know, I know if we leave this guy for a couple more days, he's going to kill more people. So what, what should I do? But even with that,
this is how much the shin bet we're very, very careful, very careful. Yep. So was that one of, what were, if you think back regarding saving lives,
was there one example that that is the top of that you were involved in where you saved people's lives? Was there any particular one?
I know you did many. You've saved hundreds of lives. But there was any one mission or one piece of information that is most memorable? The intelligence work is like a puzzle.
So I would contribute to solving the puzzle. And I was very good at that. Now, I cannot say that I saved this specific human life because I never met the people.
I assumed if we stop a suicide bomber from reaching their target, we already saved human lives. There was no time for opening bottles of champagne and celebrations or getting a bonus or getting a promotion.
In fact, when we had a very big successful operation and one of the events we captured five suicide bombers at once,
that was a great success. I mean, they had the explosives. They were ready to go. They were targeting a Raleigh,
a religious rally in Jerusalem. So they were planning on killing lots of people. So we could not believe it, because it was the last minute,
and we were very lucky to locate them and to know where they were. Now, what do you think the reward was?
That I got like a check with loss of zeros on it? Well, you cannot, as I told you from the beginning, you cannot get paid. You get paid, you get exposed. It's a matter of life and death. You cannot be stupid about it.
And what to do with the money anyway. But in cases like this, there was like thank you, a big thank you from the head of the Shimbab.
With lots of gratitude. Many people owe their lives. Now you need to get yourself ready. Get ready for what? You're going to prison. Because we cannot arrest all these people.
They just mentioned your name, you must go with them. If you stay outside, you are burnt. But now the problem, when you give material support to suicide bombers,
which, you know, basically was my rule, my undercover, right? I fascinated so I could trap them to get them to the safe house so we can locate them to be arrested. Death penalty. Oh,
no, well, they have no death penalty. At least you would spend 15 years in Israeli prison for such help. For assisting suicide bombers. Like a minimum of 10 years,
I would say. So now, but they mentioned my name during the interrogation. So what do we do? It's a big, big trouble. So will I spend 10 years in prison? Well,
I'm not the bad guy. So now how to deal with a dilemma like this? On one And they had to arrest me right away.
So when they arrest me at least, they did something about it. They put me in a cell in interrogation right now. But we continued basically our operation for a few weeks from that office with whatever information we had.
And the creative solution was to release one of the Swaside bombers, which was originally from Jordan, back to Jordan, back to his family.
We don't believe him now, right. But I had to spend six months under administrative detention. Of course, after brutal interrogation that I did not confess. So they did not have evidence against me.
It was only hearsay. It was hearsay by that guy who was a fake. So we had to sacrifice basically one of those who was had bombers to give me the cover. Smart.
I mean, like this. So basically, it's not like, لذلك لن أريد أن أقول أن هذا هو أشياء مدينة لكن كما ترى هناك لن يوجد رقم يجب أن تفعل الأشياء وكذلك يمكنك أن تسأل السؤال why I was motivated to this degree وعليا أن my intention from the beginning was not to help Israel at all أصدقائي أو لا أصدقائي إنهم يصلون للمجد، هذه عيشات Those are the ones who were torturing prisoners in Migito prison during the 16 months My first
imprisonment They were the same leaders of the Hamas military wing outside of prison carrying all the Suicide bombing attacks So my enemy from prison which I hated very much.
The ones were interrogating me, I mean, not torturing me, but interrogating me, where the actual masterminds behind the waves of suicide bombing attacks during the Second Palestinian Intifada.
And for me, it was... Sadists. It was beyond personal. But even though I hated them very much, I did not want them to be dead. هذا is why I insist on their arrest because I always told my handlers listen If I allow my personal problem revenge Then I will lose my my moral stand I don't want to hurt them because I hate them very much.
So we arrest them At least couple of them resist the arrest and they got killed different story. They start shooting at the forces,
three hours, calling their names, asking them to just drop their guns and step out. They refused. They kept shooting. They killed several police dogs.
And, you know, that was, that's it. The only way is just to eliminate them and they were killed. And I don't feel sorry for them.
Today I stand in a different moral ground when it comes to terrorists, even when it comes to my own father, who I saved his life. And that was part of the deal that the Israeli intelligence would never touch my father.
And they honored that, even though he was a top Hamas leader. In fact, they still honor that until today. Because just recently, لأنه قريباً عندما كنت في إسرالي، أردت أن أقوم with him and convince him to condemn "Sinwar" والأول خلاله هو "هدو دشنبيت" لن نكون أكثر أكثر "هدو دشنبيت" كانت كأنهم ستقتلهم بعد أنه قلت أعتقدت أنهم لا يمكنني You know,
you're still calculating, like, you know, like the... I didn't understand. Who's going to kill who? The Palestinians. Would kill my father. If he condemned Sinwa. Or like,
at least he would be politically assassinated. And Sinwar is the effective leader of Hamasanao? In Gaza. In Gaza. My father is in the leadership in the West Bank.
Yes, okay. So if he condemned Sinwar, then he would be seen as a traitor and somebody would kill him. So, but this is like, you know, how even until today, the shin bait still manage.
To protect your father? The relationship between me and my father. Wow. You know, so this is why when people come and claim, you know, that Israel is targeting civilians,
it's in war, في الحمس وحمس في الغزة لأنه مخطوط ويوجد فيه مخطوط ويوجد فيه لا يوجد طريق إصريقيا لتعطي حمس ويوجد حمسة مخطوط بعد الجنسائد ويقوم بكتوبر 7 ويوجد فيه خلالهم ويوجد فرقهم ويومين لا يوجد إموني ليست هذا الموقع ليست بعد فرق أو فرق أشخاص أمام taken human shields and threatening the existence of Israel.
They've said they're going to do it again? Yeah. They've done it before, at least. So we're certain that they are capable of repeating, and every time they came back stronger. So it's an ugly war,
and it's inevitable. But morally, but morally. I want to follow up on a thread, though, before we finish on your spying. So What was the scariest time, the time where,
when you were most worried? Was there a particular event or time when you were most worried about being caught? Oh, boy, I don't know.
Because you must have been scared. For 10 years, you're appearing to be working for both sides and you weren't, most people would be afraid, but you are a cool character.
You're a cool guy. Well, I have to say, in the mission, the adrenaline rush and the moment and the great moment and knowing that you are not walking alone,
knowing that you are protected, there are drones in the sky, there are supposedly undercover agents. There was no actually transportation that did not involve a dozen or two dozen of secret agents just for my...
Watching you. Transportation. How many vehicles, how many people got involved in a thing without having to go in too much detail.
I never felt that I was alone in any mission or anything. So I did not feel like scared because I was part of operation. Just the thing is like when I was in the room full of explosives or I had to drive the terrorist car that was full of explosives,
kitchen made and I had to put it in my own garage next to my house and I could not convince my mother why she had to leave the house that was a very scary moment because I could not leave the car it was a stolen car if you look from the window you're going to see the guns the rifles the explosive vests wired it was just ready to go if that thing blow up it would blow up the entire block.
So for me, it was, what am I doing? So that was very scary, because now I'm not relying on the Israeli intelligence. I'm relying on my own decision of taking the terrorist's car to help them hide it.
Because I was worried if they keep it and if I lose. No, no, and if I lose touch with them, they're going to go on their own and possibly reach their target.
Right, I see. I see. So you kept the car and the explosive. Yes, as long as, as it's my position, but that was like, it could mean a disaster. Right, because this is not,
this is not very sophisticated stuff. So that, if I remember, that was like one of the moments that was very scary. Another moment when I decided that after 10 years that I wanted to leave,
or let's say maybe eight or nine years that I asked the permission to just go somewhere else the Israeli intelligence refused and this was also another scary thing because I felt for the first time that I was against my will right they never made me feel that way it was a new leadership they were different so anyway I insisted on leaving and eventually they let me go.
But that period of time where I felt like, you know, no, you cannot leave. Yeah, yeah. And that was after Gonen, Ben Yitzchak was stopping your handler.
Yes, right? So for about eight years, was it eight years that you worked with that with Gonen? And tell us about that. Did you become friends? Did you rely on him?
Did you trust him? Did he treat you like a son? Did you look to him as a father? What was the relationship like with your handler? I mean, Gune is not that old. He was more of a brother.
And, of course, you could tell who was sincere, you know, who was. Because Gennan was not the only handler that I had. I had many handlers, by the way. Just for the purpose in the book,
I did not want to reveal too many names. Oh, I see. All right. I didn't know that. And it also so many foreign names, I did not want the readers to be confused. So I made Gunen into just the only handler,
which was basically the representative of the agency. But the period Gunen was there, we did lots of creative work. And I really loved working with Gunen, very creative,
very brave, and trustworthy. Most importantly, that he did not treat me just as an asset. And I'm not saying that other handlers treated me as an asset because it was all based on friendship and understanding.
But Gunan took it to the next level. He broke rules even. He broke lots of rules. But together we were able to do the impossible things.
The impossible things that I'm telling you about capturing the menace was at bombers. And thankfully, it was during the peak of terrorist attacks. So Gonen unleashed creativity.
He was like, okay, we have the protocol here. Just let's go. Forget about the protocol. And we just kept going. We kept going as a team. I mean, like, we would work around the clock,
no sleep. And sometimes for days and just we keep going. I remember with just no sleeping, but I would sit in one post for five hours at the time.
I was not allowed to go to the toilet. Because I had to keep my gaze on the door, on the gate, on the window. If the guy leaves,
just in the moment, I go for any reason, any personal reason, we probably have to deal with another suicide or two suicide bomb and attacks.
So sometimes we did not have the force on the ground. Sometimes we had lack of resources. And I had to cover that. It was not my job, but Gounen would give me that job.
And most importantly, that the Shinbet had lots of information that they weren't able to analyze in time and analyze it fast. Because when they bring someone who just went to school to study psychology,
now they don't know the operatives, they don't know the names, they don't know the families, they don't know the difference between this and that, they had to go through hundreds of pages,
sometimes thousands of documents in order to make sense of one thing. For me, if I had the information, I would make sense of it a lot faster.
And this is where I shifted from being in the field to being mostly at the headquarters, working with experts who would just like tell me the stories or their experience.
Just tell me the experience, the narrative, what's going on, and I would just piece it together, and that's it. We come to a conclusion super fast. And this was like the other part that I was not bringing information.
I was given the information and I made sense. Helping you analyze it. So, yeah, that was, I think, the golden time. It was really amazing because what we were able to do, every time we captured the suicide bomber or like Marwan Berguti and his assistant in the Al -Axa murder brigades,
the Hamas bomb maker, Salih Talaamme, I'm talking about high -profile people, Abdelah Barguti, this person has on his hands at least 100 Israeli lives,
more. And he was, the judge were able to convict him with 64 murders. But that's what the judge was able to convict him.
The truth is double or triple the amount of casualties on his hands. So I have to say it was, It was lots of fun,
it was risky, and I love taking the risk, especially, you know, how everything began with the Israeli intelligence, with really revenge, hateful intention,
but then how things developed, and I start to get, you know, it's like, who is my enemy and who isn't, actually, who are the criminals and who are the ones who are trying to restore the order, who are the ones who don't have any protocol or any compass,
any moral compass, and who are the ones actually following moral compass? They take civilians into their calculations. They take my safety into their calculations.
Then I really got to know the democratic model as a Ramallah, born in Ramallah. No idea. How would I know? I never traveled outside the country.
So for the first time, it's like, this is the work of like a democratic establishment. Morality, rule of law. And of course, there are violations in every system. There are soldiers,
there are agents who break the rule, but if they are cut, they are persecuted by the establishment. Nobody can get away with their crimes. So, but this was the contrast of the jungle of which I came from.
Yes. And now open your imagination of how, what type of impact that had on my consciousness and how I viewed reality.
Now you said you worked for different handlers. Why would they switch handlers if you had such a good relationship with any particular one, Gonen or someone else? Why would they switch handlers or do they just retire or something?
What happens? I'm sure the agency has their own reasons. One of the most important things, the asset is just an asset.
It should not become a relationship. Okay, I think this is one of the reasons. I see. So you don't become too emotionally tied. Yes, it could become dangerous.
I see. And I think this is one of the reasons that they were afraid, you know, that Gennin and I went too far into, like, our human relationship,
which was essential for, like, building the trust. It was so important and we accomplished a lot, but also very dangerous. Could lead to some problems.
I understand. Now I get it. Some problems. But this is one of the reasons. Others, you know, I think people get promotion. If they served in a certain area, then they may be moved to more complicated region.
I see. That requires more experience. So people graduate, then new people would come certain areas. Ramallah was a sophisticated area because it was the headquarters of Yasser or Afat.
So The leaders of Ramallah usually become top leaders of the agency. So they have their own reasons why. Okay. I don't know like they're...
You've, I think you've answered the question with a... Very logical, it sounds right. Now, there were rumors that you were also working for the CIA at some point. Is that true or not?
Or you can't talk about it? No, it's not true. Okay. I was not allowed. And in fact, I was not allowed to work for any other intelligence service.
And there was a polygraph test every period of time if I had any involvement with any intelligence service.
Because the Shembe was afraid that I would be approached by other intelligence services, which, you know, the city of Ramallah was infested of those and that was the biggest threat for the Israeli intelligence other intelligence services I worked for the American government oh and it was what was it the USAID United States Agency for International Development And that was a project for five years,
which was very good because they paid very good money. And that's when you were still working for Hamas and for Shembet. Yes. Sometimes you see some people, you know, mocking me online because I was trying to tell people,
hey, if I wanted the money, I would have stayed there because I was paid by the United States, by Israel, by the Palestinian Authority, and by Hamas at the same time. and I وكان في حالة حماس موني في بعض الأمر هذا هو أشياء أخرى التي لا يفهم الكثير من الموضوع وكان سيكون أسيحا لأشياء الموني في الحقيقة، في كثير من الأحياء، We used Hamas money to launch operation against Hamas.
So all the logistics in our operation in the field were paid by Hamas money against Hamas. Fantastic. This is intelligence work. So most people,
you know, they think, you know, you just like sit in your comfort and the information will come to you. Then you have now the information. Then you go like on ratting people out for money. They don't know that the game is much bigger than they think in.
How can you manipulate opposing forces and how can you actually make them work against each other to create a state of equilibrium?
That's the intelligence. It's intelligence service. It's not a gang movement. movement. I see, I see. So, yeah.
Now, what did you do for USAID at the time? I don't even know what that agency is supposed to be doing. It was, it was a water resources program for the Palestinians,
a $250 million dollar project to build infrastructure and provide Palestinian territories with water,
which for me was also another experience to just see the corruption of the PA and how they stole the money and how they fooled the Americans.
And that was devastating by itself to just watch that. I was hired by the American company, not by the Palestinian Authority,
but we are cooper. office.
Yes, and at night for Shinbet. In the night, I would infiltrate, cut the fence, infiltrate the border and go to a meeting with the Israeli intelligence. And sometimes late at night,
I would meet with Hamas high -profile wanted terrorists. And sometimes you just go two or three nights without sleep, just you'll have to stop the suicide, the next suicide bomber before they reach their target.
Well, It sounds like fiction, but in this case, truth is stranger than fiction. Well, we have still so much to talk about with Mossab.
So we're going to break this interview into two parts, and this is the end of part one. We'll be back with part two. Thanks so much for listening to another episode of Life Lessons with Dr.
Bob. If you enjoy these interviews with some of today's most influential thought leaders, please follow and rate the show on your favorite podcast platform. And don't forget, you can also watch each episode on YouTube as well.
We'll see you next time.